Curse

Rera · Nov 19, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

If you think it's just noise, feel free not to respond.

The irony is that I am reading your posts, which is why I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.

But fine, I'll play your game. Explain to me why I should be obligated to heal an incompetent player, and we'll go from there.

mikkel · Nov 19, 2006, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

If you think it's just noise, feel free not to respond.

The irony is that I am reading your posts, which is why I'm having a hard time taking you seriously.

But fine, I'll play your game. Explain to me why I should be obligated to heal an incompetent player, and we'll go from there.

Yes..

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

I have nothing against monks asking for people to help them help themselves when it comes to healing, but outright denying to heal people for trivialities is undeniably arrogant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.

.. evidently.

If I really need to explain to you why I think it's appropriate to heal the lesser experienced players in a thread dealing with the image of monks to other players, I'm afraid that you're beyond what I have patience for.

Rera · Nov 19, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Would it make me a bad person if I said I didn't care how "lesser experienced players" perceive monks? The fact that a "lesser experienced player" finds it arrogant that I refuse to heal him doesn't actually make the behavior arrogant.

You use the word 'trivialities' and apply it to situations like over-aggro and eles tanking damage for extended periods. I don't find these situations trivial at all. It's downright stupidity, and that's something no one should have to put up with, no matter what class you are.

mikkel · Nov 19, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

A little over-aggro is mostly a triviality in the places where you would encounter these inexperirenced players. It's -undeniably- arrogant for a monk to expect everyone to comply with his or her wishes. Arrogant behaviour is telling people in advance that if they make even the slightest mistakes, they won't be healed. Not healing people because they're a little inexperienced isn't exactly selfless. Don't take the two out of context to make an invalid point. They're applied where they are for a reason.

Rera · Nov 19, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

We're not exactly asking for top-10 guild performance here. I want my warriors to not pull 3 groups at once, and I want my backline to kite damage intelligently. Is this unreasonable? If someone can't even manage that then I honestly don't think they're worth keeping alive.

An interesting part here is this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

Arrogant behaviour is telling people in advance that if they make even the slightest mistakes, they won't be healed.

If I tell you in advance that I expect casters to kite damage, not stand in maelstroms, etc. then why would you go ahead and do it? Inexperienced players have no excuses if they're being told beforehand what not to do. If you told someone to get out of the chaos storm and they just stood there, wouldn't you be pissed off? Would you heal them? You might. I wouldn't.

And for the record, I don't usually play GW to help people, which you seem to think monks should be doing. If a group is stupid to the point that it's stressing me out, I'm going to leave some people face down.

gobla · Nov 19, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Mikkel,

You say my statistics in how much healing clothies need are off. Now please, go do the Raisu Palace mission and try tanking 3-4 of those lvl 28 enemies there. Using no protective enchants or any form of self defense, just healing. I can gaurantee you that your energy will be depleted healing yourself in less then 15 seconds ( using only pure healing spells ) if you even manage to outheal all that damage for so long. Or try tanking 2 lvl 28 offensive bosses ( Offensive means guys like warriors, assasins, dervish, elementalists and rangers mostly. ) at the same time, also works great in proving my point.

You say that I have to rez using rebirth every single time, now my post clearly states that most of the time I immediatly say that I'm ready. This means that I actually didn't have to rebirth anyone and that I'm above 40 energy at the end of the battle. Now read that 'most of the time', that means that say 75% of all high lvl battles I am immediatly ready for another one. Yet sometimes ( read that sometimes a few more times ) I have to rebirth, had to do LOTS of healing in the battle or I was for example facing a mesmer/necro with E-denial ( Arcane Lanquor or however that exhaustion causing skill is called that the mesmers in Raisu Palace use. Or Wither wich some Titan bosses use. ) In these situations I do need a break to get my energy back. Just for clarity these situations do NOT happen after every fight.

And what is arrogant about telling my party what they can expect? They're not forced to follow my rules, but if they don't atleast try to then I won't be the one healing them. They're free to leave the party and find a monk who does waste his energy healing every single random idiot. They're free to depend purely on the second monk to heal them if they behave like extreme morrons. I'm merely telling them what they can expect from me, and it works great.

And surely someone as smart as you must understand that I am in fact not a robot using these rules like a computer would and following them blindly. It must be evident that I am in fact a human being and thus will not follow those rules blindly.

Now I do hope that you give reading this post a bit more time then my previous one, but maybe it's not worth reading the posts of a silly arogant monk.

the_jos · Nov 19, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

We're not exactly asking for top-10 guild performance here. I want my warriors to not pull 3 groups at once, and I want my backline to kite damage intelligently. Is this unreasonable? If someone can't even manage that then I honestly don't think they're worth keeping alive.

I agree with the first part (performance, pulling and kiting), the second part depends on the situation. It's possible to do a wrong pull (our group pulled 2 monks and a monk boss in one of the Crystal Desert missions yesterday).
But it is something else when this happens the entire mission and by one person.

For casters, if they get most of the damage, I'll heal, even when they are in AoE spells.
But I will tell them that standing there when getting hit (and just a few steps would have prevented that) is not very smart.
If the whole group takes damage, the caster will be out of luck (or at the bottom of my list).
That has more to do with team survival and reaching goals than the individual player that screws up.

That's what being a monk is about, in my opinion.
Enable a group to reach their goal (complete mission/bonus, cap skills, quests or just win). And the way a monk does that (most of the time) is by supporting the team to stay alive.
Kiting and aggro control are as much part of that as the healing part.

mikkel · Nov 19, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

If I tell you in advance that I expect casters to kite damage, not stand in maelstroms, etc. then why would you go ahead and do it? Inexperienced players have no excuses if they're being told beforehand what not to do. If you told someone to get out of the chaos storm and they just stood there, wouldn't you be pissed off? Would you heal them? You might. I wouldn't.

Here we are, in a thread about the image of monks, talking about cutting inexperienced players some slack, and you post something like that. Being inexperienced means not knowing what the hell a Chaos Storm is, and not knowing where and how to kite. I'm sorry. I've tried explaining this to you, but you're apparently having trouble seeing the world from anything other than your perspective. If you're going to be "pissed off" at someone who doesn't know any better, instead of working to give the poor guy a chance, then it's your choice.

I don't care what kind of justification either of you two have for healing like you do, and no amount of backpedalling, inflated statistics or combination of the two is going to make it any more relevant. If you're saying that commandeering a group and demanding that 7 other people obey you, and your style of monking, instead of adapting to it, you're going to seem arrogant to everyone else, because it is arrogant. If people are dying, you have every right to give them tips on what to do and what not to do, and if they still don't, you have every right to blame one party member for the defeat. This could be helpful to other players. Facing someone telling them how to play a game they're playing to have fun is not.

If the only way you know how to play a monk is demanding things of other people and denying a service that the entire group depends on if they don't comply, you're exactly what the OT is complaining about, and I don't care how you justify it, 'cause I know from experience from myself and many, many others that it simply isn't necessary in order to complete a mission.

I can see however that people like you who resort to continued personal insults in a conversation about etiquette are more or less lost already.

Due to the high probability that either one of you are going to post yet another irrelevant reply that I really cannot be bothered to humour with a reply, I'm going to leave it here. Have fun doing things your way.

Rera · Nov 19, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

cutting inexperienced players some slack

Cutting them slack means telling them beforehand. If they were experienced I would expect them to do it without being told.

'Commandeering' a group and demanding competence is hardly arrogant. It isn't a matter of conforming to any 'style of monking', it's a matter of being an intelligent human being instead of a button-mashing moron. There isn't a 'style of monking' that makes it okay for people to do stupid things. There's too much tolerance for people who won't use their brains, and I for one am not going to contribute to that trend.

Lord Oranos · Nov 19, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.

bca242 · Nov 24, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pocky Alchemist

Silly Sins. Trix are for kids. ^_^

I almost laughed myself out of my chair xD

And to stay on topic, I hate it when Warriors/Assins/Dervs overextend... Usually the Warrior runs through all the monsters to get to one target and ends up aggroing every group near it instead of letting the ranger "pull". Then we have 20+ lvl 24ish monsters beating on everyone while im trying to heal. Someone dies and ZOMG its all the monks fault, she needs a new build, she needs to learn how to play, she is a newb!

Honestly im pretty tired of it :/ Sure Monk is my favorite class and fun to play, but the bad is starting to overpower the good D:

Hyprodimus Prime · Nov 24, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by FeroxC

because they are short in number and the ones that are available are so arrogant that they ask for payment to join your party........

1k each the last guy wanted for him to join our FoW farming party. Dont worry he didnt get it.

So, so so true....Ive met monks who wont discuss builds because they think i will steal it

I mean I just need to know if hes boon prot, full heal, if hes got condition remove etc. And i had an arguement about builds with another monk (in a mission) I got a green and she left me dead so she could get the green! And I hate it when 55s think they are invincible and join you not telling you, and they run up doing their thing. #1 we arent getting healed, #2 he cant get enough energy, 1 hit and hes dead and complaining that he should have got the entire mob. (as if he didnt see the 2 warriors in our party)

bungusmaximus · Nov 24, 2006, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.

Pffft, People that can't deal with the pressure caused by inexperienced players in Pve (ffs)
are what I call a failure at monking. If they are really that good they don't even have to play with bad pugs in the first place, why bother? The fact that they're put up with noobs means every single half decent group boots them cos he lets them die :P
Bottom line: if u join a group, no matter how bad, give it all you got or you will only be a burden. My experienced with noobs is that they mostly give it all they got as well (They are new to the game and therefore very enthusiastic), and that very well counts for something.

I did Abbadon's Mouth with my monk with a group swarming with noobs, but I managed to pull them through. I gave them some advice every now and then and at least they tried to work as a team.
Instead of starting to bitch on beforehand its much more clever to give them advice AFTER something went wrong anyway, they will be much more willingly to take your advice because they have seen your advice proven right with their own eyes.

Arrogant prick monks should shut the hell up and try some PvP monking if they believe they are THAT good. Thats mostly where they run out of energy after 5 hits because their skill bar is packed with noobish 10e heals and no e-management. being a monk alone, albeit a very crappy one, just gives them the self-proclaimed right to bitch at people. Be a noob and be modest about it: NO PROBLEM, learn how to play and everything will worrk out in the end(modest people tend to be quick learners). Be a noob and be elitist: take henchies and leave ppl that want to have good fun alone!

Sertu · Nov 24, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

If you cut some inexperienced players slack, they'll keep doing the same thing they did before, ignoring your advice.

omg thats the dumbest and arogant thing i've ever heared

. Whappend to if u practise ull get beter? Now its u do what i say or u suck ? Giving advice is fine, but letting people find things out for themselfs is from what they really learn. I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.

Rera · Nov 25, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Why are you people bringing this up again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sertu

I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.

This is probably one of the stupidest complaints I've seen all day. Teams have builds, and you will be expected to follow them. Don't like it, don't join. It's that simple.

Sab · Nov 25, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sertu

I hate people, especially in HA, who want u exactly to play the build they want (excluded such things like spirit requests, taking mantra of frost since the party is gonna bring winter,...). It really arogant if eg a warrior tells the monk what skills to bring and what not to bring.

Why is that? If you're the leader and you see Healing Breeze on a Monk bar, are you going to tell him to drop that for a decent skill?

If you're that defensive about your skill bar, I'm afraid team-play isn't for you.

jesh · Nov 25, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by random.name

....
Firstly, the difference between a ranger a ele is not just 10 AL. Rangers have this little thing called armor vs elements. They also a few skills that allow them to dodge attacks etc. Im sure you know that, and you are trying to make a different point that escapes all the rest of us?

A good elementalist will be in the back with the rangers, and will kite like mad when they see signs of aggro. Armor doesn't matter too much, when a lot of it is armor ignoring. If worse comes to worse, the ranger does have the elemental advantage. I really don't think a ranger should have more than 1 "survival" stance on their bar, and that's maybe too much. (PvE)

Quote:

Secondly, when you say that you dont have to regen energy between battles, and the rest of us must be doing something wrong, are you referring to the start of the various chapters? If that is the case, then yeah, if you are level 20 playing around in ascalon I agree that you dont need to regen energy. We, who play the endstage missions of the game do not have that luxury you see. We have to keep 7 other people alive, and well, I dont think I need to explain the maths to you...

Energy management.

Quote:

Lastly I wish to state for the record that I doubt very much that you have played a monk later in the game. You sound too much like that irritating assassin/dervish we get in PUG's that c.............e healed, and at the end of the day its just easier doing the mission without him.

So yeah, we are all in awe of your awesome skills, and we all wish we could be as leet as you!

This sounds like a personal attack. Seriously, take energy management and keep aware of the battle. You'll get better.

I won't heal people if they are clearly:
a. Uninfused in an area with Mursaat attacks
b. Have beginner armor in a high level area (level 20+ monsters)
c. Have no clue how aggro works and don't mind attracting all the monsters in the area

I do agree about the "idiots" thing. A lot of times it's just 1 person that messes things up for your whole group, but .. well most of the time I do heal them anyways. I try to get them to see how they could do things better, but it's about a 50/50% chance they'll listen. I don't leave anyone dead on the ground though, unless I'm dead too. That's just mean isn't it?

bungusmaximus · Nov 27, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

If I still have 15 energy or more ill heal every moron in range, if it sinks below 15 I have to start making choices and that's the moment the moron dies. Not my problem if he/she plays like horsecrap when I tried all I could...

arcady · Nov 27, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

If you joined the group, and you were invited or joined under the pretense of being a healer or protector, you should perform that duty without question.

If you are not willing to do so, you should not join in the first place.

You take the group as it comes. If it is not to your liking in skill-level, you should not have joined.

They invited you, joined you, or let you in on an assumption that you would do your job. Whether or not they do their job to the level you feel is proper is not a proper condition upon which to base your own performance. It is a factor you have a right to use in joining, staying, or leaving. But it is unethical for you to skimp on your duties once you have accepted the position.

Effigy · Nov 27, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

This discussion has pretty much been beaten into the ground, but I'll throw in a few more comments.

First of all, you can't always be sure of a group's "skill-level" before you join. The W/Mo is not going to come right out and tell you, "Yes, I like to aggro 3 groups at a time and overextend for no good reason." If and when you learn this information (during the mission), you have to respond accordingly. I'm not advocating elitism or newbie-bashing, but you can't let one ignorant player drag the whole group down by wasting all your energy needlessly and causing a wipe. When someone goes off the deep end and brings down the wrath of all the mobs in the zone on their head, that's their own fault. If you proceed to foolishly waste all your resources on that person, you too are at fault. Better to let them collect their 15% DP and reflect on their mistake rather than making an additional mistake yourself.

You say that when you join a group, you are expcted to do your job. I won't dispute this. However, when you join a group it's generally assumed that the other players will also do their respective jobs. Overextending and overaggroing are not part of anybody's job. When someone decides to make it their job, it's your job to respond accordingly. Monks, contrary to popular belief, do not have unlimited resources with which to heal and protect a team. Monking is a lot more than just mashing buttons--it's about decision-making. When your resources are stretched thin, you have to make hard and fast decisions about who gets healed/protted and who doesn't. In order to make that decision prudently, you have to consider how your resources will be best invested. I can tell you right now that they would not be best invested in a player who is drawing an inordinate amount of fire to themself and the rest of the team. Instead, it's best to spend your resources on players who are trying to limit the amount of damage they are taking, by kiting and other strategies. This will allow you to keep a greater number of players alive for a longer period of time than if you just tried to heal one clueless and/or suicidal newbie. If the rest of the group survives, you can always res the newbie and give him a few pointers on how to avoid earning another 15% DP.

Again, this is not about elitism. It's about utilitarianism--providing the greatest good to the greatest number. Just because one player can attract the most damage to himself doesn't mean he deserves more of your resources than the other six.